King Billy — player complaint #62995, 2020-11-15: bonus terms

Dear POGG, on the date of Nov 4, 2020 I had a conversation with [EDIT] from King Billy support team about how much cash back I was going to get for that week, he informed me that I wasn't going to get any because I didn’t deposit the minimum amount of 750 cad. But that wasn’t true I actually deposited $8k cad that week. He then gave me this equation to calculate Cashback Bonus for that week.: Duke: (total deposit amount - total cashout sum - received bonuses) × 0.07. As stated in the chat below: [EDIT] (08:52:07): Oh, sorry, as I've checked, your account is not available for the cashback [EDIT] (08:52:12): Please, let me explain that the Thursday Cashback Bonus calculation is based on the following formula: total deposits amount (500 EUR ) placed in the period from Thursday 00:00 till Wednesday 23:59 minus the total cashout sum within a specified time and minus the total bonuses received sum for the mentioned period. The cashback is calculated using the formula for Duke: (total deposit amount - total cashout sum - received bonuses) × 0.07. [EDIT] (08:53:26): You have spent in our casino from last Thursday till now is less than 500EUR, and your account is not eligible for cashback today :( Now nowhere in the terms and conditions mentions anything about this, I have an image below from King Billy terms and conditions and this is the equation: (pot-winning amount-bonus)*10 So where did [EDIT] get all this info from? when he has the terms and conditions literally infront of him! Then I ask [EDIT] where is pot in your equation and where is winning amount in your equation, like where did you actually get this info from? he then begins to define to me that “pot means deposit amoun” and winning amount is “the amount you have won from free spins its like cash out”. Chat below: [EDIT] (08:59:14): there is no cashout sum on there [EDIT] (08:59:28): and the pot wager is there [EDIT] (08:59:43): like you guys creat your own rules everytime [EDIT] (09:00:40): You can contact your VIP manager to specify it [EDIT] (09:01:16): why doesn't it say minus cashout sum [EDIT] (09:01:30): you just made that up [EDIT] (09:01:41): show me in terms and conditions where it says that [EDIT] (09:02:07): and what about the pot winning amount and wager [EDIT] (09:02:17): how come you never mentioned that?? [EDIT] (09:02:42): What do you mean? [EDIT] (09:03:48): on your Cashback terms and conditions it clearly states!! [EDIT] (09:04:32): it mentions n nothing bout cashout sum [EDIT] (09:05:43): and my winning amounts and pot you never mentioned that [EDIT] (09:06:21): where is vita [EDIT] (09:08:36): Pot is the deposit amount [EDIT] (09:08:59): exactly I deposited 8k [EDIT] (09:09:27): my winning amount that week was over 50k [EDIT] (09:09:45): The winning amount do not count [EDIT] (09:09:54): Counts only deposits [EDIT] (09:09:57): so why does it say that [EDIT] (09:10:09): Pot means DEPOSIT [EDIT] (09:10:25): what does winning amount mean [EDIT] (09:11:52): Winning amount is the amount you won from the free spins it's like cashout So at this point I’m so confused because I’m a newbie to online casinos, and I really never got the terminology down! So when [EDIT] is explaining everything to me, I’m lost because he literally is being told what to say or is making everything up, so I start getting suspicious because the week before my cashback was $4200. Then he goes on telling me that my vip manager Vita will contact me and explain everything to me as well. Instead on Nov 4, 2020 at 9:18am, I emailed my vip manager, image is below, explaining to her about the conversation I had with [EDIT] and how he was giving me false information. I explained to Vita, what he defined pot to mean and winning amount to mean, and asked her for clarification on the matter, as you can tell in the email I was frustrated! Then on Nov 4, 2020 at 12:58pm, my vip manager emailed me back explaining to me the same thing, that [REMOVE]Martin[REMOVE] had clearly explained that my total deposit amount is $8250 and my withdrawal was $8000. So she is actually agreeing with [REMOVE]Martin[REMOVE] which means: A. The system was incorrect at calculating cashbacks at that time for Nov 4, 2020, for cash backs! (Please remember this point, because the terms and conditions have not changed for months now) B. [EDIT] and [EDIT] were giving me false information! So she did “$8.250 - $8.000 = less than the required minimum for getting the cashback bonus ($750)” as you can see in the image of the terms and conditions here below no where does it mention anything about withdrawals affecting my cashout! But it does mention deposits affecting my cashout, $750 CAD. 4. WEEKLY BONUS “EVERY THURSDAY: KING'S GIFT!” (CASHBACK) 4.1. Min deposit values from 00:00 (UTC) since last Thursday until 23:59 (UTC) Wednesday (excluding current period) should be greater than: 500 EUR / 500 USD / 750 AUD / 750 NZD / 750 CAD / 5 000 NOK / 2 500 ZAR / 50 000 JPY / 25 000 RUB / 40 000 INR. 4.2. The minimum amount of cashback is EUR 35 / USD 35 / AUD 52.5 / CAD 52.5 / NZD 52.5 / YEN 3500 / INR 2800 / NOK 350 / ZAR 175 / RUB 1750 *Unavailable for cryptocurrencies. 4.3. Maximum amount of cashback: 5000 EUR / 5000 USD / 50 000 NOK / 7 500 AUD / 7 500 NZD / 250 000 RUB / 7 500 CAD / 75 000 ZAR / 500 000 JPY / 400 000 INR 4.4. Cashback is calculated using the formula: for Duke / Duchess: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.07. for Prince / Princess: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.10. for King / Queen: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.13. 4.5. The cashback period is defined as the week prior to the issuing of the bonuses, from 00:00 (UTC) Thursday until 23:59 (UTC) Wednesday. 4.6. This bonus is available for players who have already made four first deposits. 4.7. This bonus is available without any wager. Now I was suspecting her of giving me false information about the cashback for the week, and had no idea where she was getting this information from? They still haven’t provided me with answers! Then I emailed her at Nov 04, 1:07pm image below, clearly asking her what pot= and what win=. Then on Nov 4, 2020 at 1:47 pm image below, I emailed her again explaining my frustrations about what was going on, telling her there is clearly nothing on the terms and conditions that states a withdrawal would affect the cashback bonus. Being frustrated, i metioned being targeted because I have a pending issue with King Billy on AskGamblers about a refund for a glitch issue of $3000 CAD. Also asking her what the definitions meant, so that I can post them on Askgamblers.com so from here on out other gamblers that go through the same will have a clear understanding, of the terms and conditions! In the next email on Nov 05, 2020 6:39am, [EDIT] my Vip manager explains to me that Cashback Bonus system has been updated on the platform providers side, and the agent and her did not provide me with accurate information, about the minimum loss amount which proved my suspicions to be true. Then in the next email, which I feel is the most important info she gives me, because when I asked her to define all the terms, what pot= and win= in the terms and conditions of the Cashback Bonus, She sent me a new cashback policy that’s clearly not in the the terms and conditions of the Cashback bonus, because I checked! “We've received the updated information with the cashback conditions. Please, let me explain how the system works in details:” Then she breaks down all the information so I understand what everything means in detail and she does a wonderful job: 'Thursday Cashback' Bonus conditions: • minimum net loss amount* (minus issued bonus and withdrawal sum) placed in the period from Thursday 00:00 till Wednesday 23:59 is €/$500 (750AU$/CAD); The • The minimum deposits sum placed in the period from Thursday 00:00 till Wednesday 23:59 is €/$500 (750AU$/CAD); • The refund is calculated using the formula for Prince status: (pot** - winning amount - received bonuses***) × 0.1;  • Unavailable for Cryptocurrencies;  • Wager Free / No Max Win;  • net loss* = (total bet amount - total winning bet amount); • pot** is the total bet sum; • received bonuses***: the cashback bonus for the previous week, 'points for money' bonus, and canceled bonuses are not taken in count. Due to those rules and conditions for getting the 'Thursday Cashback Bonus', your bonus ($677.09) has been automatically added to your account. At this point in time, I was so confused because no where in the terms and conditions state this! I still didn’t understand what any of the terms meant, and was confused with everything. But, the smartest thing I did was on Nov 05, 2020, was post a thread on the AskGamblers forum!!! Please take a look at the the thread “Can anyone explain this Cashback Bonus to me?” Asking anyone for help with the formulas. But I was not able to get King Billy casino to help me at all!! But I did get help from the admin and other members, so I started to research and investigate. The Reason For Claim: So based on the emails that I had: - [EDIT] my vip manager first she said I never qualified for the weekly cashback because of deposits.which is nowhere to be found on the terms and conditions - then provided me of a formula Deposit - withdrawal = less than min. $750 that is no where in the terms and conditions. - then she apologized profusely and sent me a brand new cash back policy that it was updated from the platform side and again, there has been no updates is in the terms and condition. But, what I did notice from the original terms and conditions weekly cashback policy and from the new weekly one that [EDIT] sent me was that she included the wording Total Winning Bet amount in the equation for the calculation of the net loss formula, net loss* = (total bet amount - total winning bet amount); but she had kept Winning Amount in the equation for the cashback. for Prince / Princess: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.10. Then after taking a look at what [EDIT] had sent me of how to calculate all of the information provided I realized that I was owed more than what I really assumed. Imagine that, Because in the diagram she emailed me their were two diff. terms: 1.Total winning bet amount. 2. Winning bet amount. What does Total winning bet amount and winning amount mean: Well if I'm gambling on live baccarat and I bet $1500, and I win, I get back $3000. Because when I made that initial bet of $1500, it was withdrawn out of my balance and then when I won I got $3000, but in reality I only won $1500. My total Bet sum= $1500,   My total winning bet amount = $3000     My total winning amount = $1500 Why I’m bring this up, well because in the terms and conditions for the Cashback Bonus, King Billy will claim that in the equation: for Prince / Princess: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.10. The winning amount above refers to total winning bet amount. But it’s very important to look at the new policy that my Vip manager [EDIT] sent me as evidence to prove my claim that the two terminologies exist: A. She made sure she added asterisks to make sure I understood terms and definitions. B. She was knew I was frustrated, because she mislead me and wanted everything defined, as the email shows. C. She was very descriptive and analytical in the way she organized everything D. She holds a Post of Senior Vip Manager; she is very experienced. Therefore; when she added the two different terminologies Total Winning Bet Amount and Winning Bet Amount, King Billy Cant’ make the claim that it was a clerical error because of how well descriptive and analytically, it was written and because on numerous occasions I was complaining to her to define everything in great detail. Also because of the senior position she holds at King Billy. Also the betting logs that I am providing you with show categories at the top of the columns. There you will see a payoff sum which is the total winning bet amount, and the profit which is the winning amount. Again proof that these terminologies exist and have two different definitions. AlsoI have chat transcript with King Billy support staff [EDIT], that clearly states they have two different definitions. But before I get into that I just want to clarify something with AskGamblers complaint team, I have two ongoing complaints with King Billy so the relationship is sour to say the least. Everyone from their support team knows about these complaints. So, for investigative purposes I had to be sneaky in the way I asked questions, and only care about the answers that support my claim. So for the reason for this chat was only to confirm that the two definitions, the total winning bet sum and winning bet sum exist. So they can’t go back and say well no they mean the same thing, that was an error. [EDIT] (12:14:28): so what does total winning bet amount mean [EDIT] (12:17:36): hey you there [EDIT] (12:17:59): One moment please [EDIT] (12:18:43): It means that the total money returned to your account after all bets :) [EDIT] (12:19:33): so that means if I bet 1000 win 2000 [EDIT] (12:19:42): my total winning bet amount is 2000 [EDIT] (12:19:58): Yes, you are right :) Then I asked him what my winning bet meant he said, [EDIT] (12:20:07): and my winning bet is 1000 [EDIT] (12:20:19): because thats what I have won [EDIT] (12:20:52): It is your profit from the bet but it does not calculate in the cashback formula [EDIT] (12:21:08): no I already have the cashback formula [EDIT] (12:21:33): I just waned to know the definitions of what they mean [EDIT] (12:21:35): that was it [EDIT] (12:22:31): forget about the cashback formula for right now [EDIT] Therefore, The fact are there Are two different terminologies one is being the Total winning Bet Amount and the other Winning Amount two different things. And they in fact have two different terminologies, And whats on the Terms and Conditions of the Cashback policy clearly states Winning Amount! Where King Billy Violated MGA Regulations: The first violation was when my [EDIT] my vip manager sent me an email stating that there was a new updated cashback policy, and that it was recently updated to the platform providers side and the new cash back policy, was never updated to the terms and conditions for the weekly cashback. MGA Player Protection Directive PART VII Misleading and Unfair Promotional Schemes 28. Promotional schemes operated by authorised persons shall be subject to the Consumer Affairs Act. 29. (1) Any promotional scheme purporting to grant any advantage or opportunity to a player must not be misleading and (a) must be clear as to the extent of the commitment he consumer must make to take advantage of any offer; (b) cannot omit or hide material information, orpresent it in a manner which is unclear, unintelligible orambiguous; (c) must delineate with sufficient prominence all material information, including wagering and, or deposit requirements which must be fulfilled by a player in order to become entitled thereto, including examples displaying such requirements in an intelligible and easily comprehensible manner, as well as all or any applicable restrictions or other conditions in a clear and unambiguous manner; (d) must include terms and conditions referring to all material information relating to the scheme, which shall be expressly agreed to by the players before being enrolled in the scheme and must thereafter always be readily available and accessible to the player who has subscribed to the scheme 2) The authorised person shall ensure that players can constantly view their progress in fulfilling the requirements in order to benefit from any opportunity or advantage granted by the promotional scheme. 30. Where the promotion or advertisement is limited by time or space, it must include as much material information as is practical, and must direct players to an easily accessible alternative source where all the material information is prominently displayed Its clear what Malta Gaming Authority states when it comes to transparency of updating and notifying the player about and changes in the terms and conditions, that it’s necessary to do so by law. I wasn’t notified about that because I wasn’t knowledgeable about it. In fact, I was given wrong information about the cashback policy (deposit - withdrawal) =less than required min. of $750 it says nowhere on the terms and conditions of the Cashback Bonus that’show they decide if I qualify. I was also not notified because if I wasn’t persistent and threatened them to go to ask gamblers they would have never given me the new cash back policy, which was never updated onto the terms and conditions so the old policy still was binding by for that week until they updated it according to the laws of the MGA. 2. CHANGES TO TERMS AND CONDITIONS 2.1 These Terms and Conditions may be changed by the Casino when such need occurs. We will do our best to notify our players of any significant changes by email. However, we do recommend all players to revisit this page regularly and check for possible changes. 2.2 Casino reserves the right to modify and/or amend this Agreement at any time with or without prior notice. 2.3 You fully understand and agree to be bound by the terms and conditions contained herein and as they may be amended by Us due to some changes in Casino. This is what is stated in the terms and conditions when changes occur. That they will do theie best to notify the players about changes that occur but to check regularly and revisit the this page for new changes. Also the casino has the right to modify and/or change the agreement with out telling us. But again, I checked the page regularly for that week and there was no new changes about the weekly Cashback Bonus. Again when I actually inquired about how much I was going to get is when I started getting all of these answers. I’m providing with a screen shot below. As well as this from MGA, GAMING PLAYER PROTECTION REGULATIONS Part IV Unfair Terms 10. (1) Operators shall ensure that the terms and conditions applicable to the provision of their gaming service are Intelligible and easily accessible, and that changes thereto are made in a fair and transparent manner, and that players have explicitly accepted the latest version of the terms and conditions before being allowed to start or continue being the recipient of a gaming service. Malta Gaming Authority, Consumer Protection Act 47. (1) In any consumer contract, where all or some terms offered by a trader to a consumer are in writing, these terms shall be written in plain and intelligible language which can be understood by the consumers to whom the contract is directed. Conclusion: Now we get to the cash back policy that is stated in the terms in conditions. for Prince / Princess: (pot - winning amount - received bonuses) × 0.10. Its clear that there are two different terms Total winning bet amount and Winning bet amount from the email that Vita my vip manager sent me, the gaming logs that I am providing, and the chat I had with King Billy support that claim there are in fact two different terms. And what’s clear as day is that winning amount is in the equation above. And I lastly MGA states in Gaming Player Protection, Part IV, Unfair Terms, (2) Where any provision in such terms and conditions is ambivalent, or any reasonable doubt arises as to the meaning thereof, the interpretation most favourable to the player shall prevail. Malta Gaming Authority, Consumer Protection Act 47. (1) In any consumer contract, where all or some terms offered by a trader to a consumer are in writing, these terms shall be written in plain and intelligible language which can be understood by the consumers to whom the contract is directed. (2) Where any term is ambivalent or any doubt arises about the meaning of a term, the interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall prevail: What I am owed: Oct 21 to 27 2020 = $3233.39 CAD Oct 28 to Nov 02 = $6,832.91 CAD Total = $10,066.3 CAD I work hard for my money and have spent over 50k with this casino, and I don’t need to lie and cheat, you can tell by the hardwork and research I have dedicated that I am being honest! Please help me resolve my issue! Yours Truly,